00:00:00: And I remember meeting a very well-known chef and he just goes, you're a fucking disgrace to our industry.

00:00:10: Telling everyone that they can cook!

00:00:12: A lot of my heroes... ...that i loved were awful to me.

00:00:17: Absolutely like not very nice

00:00:21: at all.

00:00:23: He's quite simply the most incoherent face in global gastronomy.

00:00:28: With the naked chef, he revolutionized TV cooking with projects like Fifteen.

00:00:33: He transformed lives and brought an entire generation back into the kitchen.

00:00:39: Welcome to Rolling Pin Talks The podcast by rolling pin.

00:00:42: dear Jamie Oliver.

00:00:44: My name is Johannes Stielinger And I have to ask one question in the beginning.

00:00:49: You met Tim Meltzer yesterday Your old buddy.

00:00:52: How was it?

00:00:53: Beautiful!

00:00:54: I mean...I always love seeing Tim.

00:00:57: It's always emotional because firstly he is a good friend, a dear friend.

00:01:04: But you know we've got to a certain age now over fifty where when we think back at the first time I was eighteen and he was probably twenty-one or twenty two such young lads.

00:01:20: The beginning of our career...the world was our oyster.

00:01:25: We were stuck in a basement flat not flat kitchen where it was, you know.

00:01:31: You'd go to work in the dark and go home in the darkness And we had Genaro there.

00:01:37: It's a very precious menu.

00:01:39: I keep saying the wrong words today Menus, flats.

00:01:42: What is going on?

00:01:43: To be honest i think that might have something do with Tim because he gave me quite a lot of wine last night.

00:01:50: So im slightly hungover.

00:01:52: Apologies for all the rolling pin crew Special spirits, though.

00:02:26: TV personality and all the incredible documentaries he's done, you know.

00:02:31: So it It's always lovely to see him.

00:02:34: And I guess a little bit of me sees myself Because we've had a very similar path.

00:02:43: But he's um i think he's also.

00:02:46: He's just.

00:02:46: it's been a pleasure to watch him evolve as a chef in person.

00:02:50: Yeah We went to this beautiful restaurant last night and it was uh they were actually closed.

00:02:57: so that opened on a Monday yeah.

00:03:00: And Tim did a beautiful speech at the beginning just talking about each individual because different chefs have come from different places as well as the owners, he knew very much their career in their trajectory.

00:03:27: Where nature and good cheese are typical.

00:03:29: This is the campaign for Pecorino Romano DOP, The

00:03:33: unique

00:03:34: hard cheese

00:03:34: out of one hundred percent sheep's milk!

00:03:37: And this year they put Julia Komp as

00:03:39: a campaign ambassador.

00:03:46: It is incredibly

00:03:53: exciting to see that all this

00:04:01: cheese can do everything

00:04:02: from house man's expense up to fine dining.

00:04:04: You should definitely

00:04:07: look at Instagram and the website.

00:04:10: there you will find some creative recipes.

00:04:17: Enjoy pecorinoromano.eu.

00:04:18: You can find the link in the show notes.

00:04:24: Have a nice time up the mountains and eating mountain in food or something similar to that, but I could always do is seeing more of him

00:04:34: also.

00:04:34: Genaro Is here these days.

00:04:37: you met him.

00:04:37: I think half an hour before he served, you know coffee also some tissue He opened up new restaurant right now.

00:04:51: Did you help him in this case?

00:04:52: Yeah,

00:04:53: of course.

00:04:53: I mean Genaro's the godfather right.

00:04:55: so Of course We we helped him in every In any way that he wants.

00:05:02: Look his is seventy-eight He has a vitality he has an energy.

00:05:08: of course he still gets tired But it very obviously he's not gonna take risks mentally financially like when he was twenty.

00:05:16: So It's his restaurant and I try help organize it happening.

00:05:23: And becoming a reality, but he's look I think is... He still got lot to give!

00:05:29: He has the recipes like.

00:05:30: you can train multiple chefs beautifully and he could still represent the restaurant.

00:05:36: Like.

00:05:36: I promise that he will be in there alot.

00:05:39: We'll kick him out.

00:05:40: go Go.

00:05:42: But i think his an amazing example of what does future looks.

00:05:50: When are you supposed to retire?

00:05:52: Like, even the concept of retiring is an interesting one in general.

00:05:57: Because typically if your a chef like real chef... In-your heart is hospitality and enjoyment really seeing people enjoy food or experience.

00:06:13: And just because you get to sixty-five or whatever the age is in your country, like... You have

00:06:18: to

00:06:19: stop it.

00:06:20: So I disagree on that but i do think we should respect our elders and i believe in that hierarchy.

00:06:32: my job was to exhaust all of the information from Genaro his brain as possible but he still comes up with stuff like curveballs, left feel.

00:06:45: Like crazy assed incredible recipes that are bonkers delicious intelligent historical.

00:06:52: where the hell did that come from?

00:06:56: Constantly I'm like you little bastard.

00:06:58: it's been saving that one under the pillow!

00:07:02: So um so i think Genaro opening this new restaurant is a real sign of his wisdom his verve for life and the early signs are it's really working.

00:07:17: It is very cheap, affordable, small model.

00:07:21: beautiful aspirational to young chefs simple model high risk opening restaurants expensive employing people.

00:07:30: so if you can make a little bit of money on a small project that is beautiful from heart after all those years cooking We don't need fancy this or fancy that.

00:07:41: And God bless all the fancy stuff, by the way it's all part of the beautiful industry.

00:07:45: but The fact a seventy-eight year old can like do Like...the most humble Bolognese with homemade pasta.

00:07:54: That's

00:07:54: why they

00:07:54: call them bolognets.

00:07:56: Yeah because even he has got a polypore an octopus ragu which is made in same energy as a bolognaise and still using wine.

00:08:06: It's the same but different and beautifully different, you know?

00:08:09: So the menu's very focused.

00:08:11: Very small And um... The early signs of young people love it.

00:08:16: Um so I'm excited for him but look like he is family to me Like we call Tim our Italian dad.

00:08:24: Yeah And I know that Tim Meltzer equally as passionate about Gennaro But uh.. He's here.

00:08:36: I mean, i don't know where he is.

00:08:37: He's probably chatting someone up around there.

00:08:42: There was quite a lot of German women out there so it was probably chatting them.

00:08:45: but yeah...he's amazing!

00:08:47: I think Tim Meltzer told me last year on the same stage like we are talking afterwards that Gennaro had to leave Italy because of stories with women, but we don't want to dive deep now.

00:08:58: It's very

00:08:59: true!

00:09:01: But you mentioned they keep it simple thing and this is looking back into the past... The idea for Nakey Jeff was in fact kept as simple as possible some years ago If you think about what comes from your mind first?

00:09:16: What is your

00:09:18: mind?

00:09:23: You started.

00:09:23: Yeah, I think in Germany and the UK maybe more in Germany by the way The way that we were accepting food into our life through communications from media TV magazines Was quite I don't know what the right word is like austere quiet professional very chefy Yes, and very much the wisdom of the older generation.

00:09:56: Which is completely fine.

00:09:58: but I think you want to have an industry a food industry... ...and communication industry.

00:10:04: that's diverse right?

00:10:05: In age in cuisines cultures And it definitely wasn't in the UK.

00:10:14: When i first started working at Germany The way magazines looked was photographed.

00:10:20: there was nothing wrong with who is being celebrated, it's just quite mono.

00:10:24: And so the Naked Chef really was about representing young people also.

00:10:31: I took my chef whites off like i was a chef.

00:10:33: that was my job but It Was About Being At Home With Friends and Family Probably like we didn't have a structure in the river cafe, but I was running services at The River Cafe that stage.

00:10:54: so You would call me a sous chef.

00:10:57: I guess But I loved it, but it was about home friends saving money beer you know music and being young And i think That It really Really resonated In The UK?

00:11:15: Then I remember very uniquely um...I worked Germany for a bit and nothing happened.

00:11:22: It was it was like, it wasn't working.

00:11:24: And then

00:11:25: one we didn't understand that or

00:11:26: he was just like I can't my do my book signings?

00:11:29: Do?

00:11:29: my interviews are due this in that the other end is like tumbleweed um, and then one week they're just exploded.

00:11:38: and Well you see really good question why.

00:11:42: My philosophical opinion Was A version of what i said.

00:11:48: There was the old way of communicating food in Germany.

00:11:51: And it just felt like there was a rush, um... Of new younger more diverse German representation of food.

00:12:00: and I Was probably part of it but like i was surfing The top of the wave of it right because if i remember that week It happened.

00:12:08: and for A foreign boy In your country you know we blinked and We'd sold a million books which even today is Like impossible Like, so you know I think it's... Germany is probably my second biggest territory in the world.

00:12:23: And i don't really broadcast TV here because of the English language obviously.

00:12:27: So In a way My relationship with The German Public Is Probably The Most Authentic Because It' s My Editorial Its My Book Relationship.

00:12:38: You Know its Not Really.

00:12:40: How Can I Say?

00:12:42: I've Never Been Broadcast efficiently in germany.

00:12:45: so it's not like my personality and my programs that they've always been hard to find.

00:12:50: you know i'm on a prime time network.

00:12:53: I remember my generation.

00:12:55: i am little bit younger than u are, i was fascinated in austria.

00:13:00: i don't know if it was broadcasted but the internet

00:13:04: is different.

00:13:05: actually austria Per capita is my most successful territory on the planet.

00:13:10: Yes, well I don't know what happened in Austria?

00:13:13: I probably need to thank Austria but I go skiing there twice a year But I really don't per capita.

00:13:21: it's like gone crazy and it always has been crazy.

00:13:23: But yeah look III just felt.

00:13:26: I mean I was a young boy when I started And I was very grateful that also being grateful being young traveling trying new foods It all kind of was part of the same energy.

00:13:39: Coming to times right now, there is I think thirty-one books... Yeah.

00:13:45: ...accounted and how it's write.

00:13:47: Fifty million copies something like that?

00:13:49: Yeah!

00:13:55: I've heard a few different numbers but its' all okay.

00:13:58: I'm very grateful.

00:13:59: yeah.

00:14:00: Right now you have this barbecue book And I heard an interview, you said that you want to feminise it a little bit.

00:14:09: More female people are feel included with.

00:14:13: what's the idea of this book.

00:14:14: now?

00:14:15: What is

00:14:16: The Barbecue Book?

00:14:18: That more the female spirit is in it correct?

00:14:21: yeah precisely

00:14:22: Okay.

00:14:24: well first of all like barbecues kind of genre there is quite guarded.

00:14:32: I don't really like guarded areas of food or the culinary world.

00:14:39: But if you were to look at, say, thirty barbecue books there's a pattern with quite...a lot of masculinity A lot tattoos and lots of beards And a lot brisket.

00:14:50: It is all great!

00:14:51: And i love it!

00:14:52: I respect this and admire that.

00:14:53: I've gone to America and done the BBQ competitions You know?

00:14:57: I have been here in the biggest names having a go.

00:15:02: you know, it's been a pleasure to come second third and fourth against really good people.

00:15:07: They're amazing!

00:15:08: But the truth is when I opened my restaurant Barbecoa which was a really unusual restaurant in London It was like no gas No electric just wood fire charcoal ash pits Texan smokers You know Robata grills All these different kinds of grills from different countries Different ovens Like it was complicated genius kitchen.

00:15:34: You know, I did my research and actually a lot of the historical writings of barbecue go back to women.

00:15:42: And when i opened barbacoa bearing in mind everything that I just said...I had forty six chefs.

00:15:52: We had good people apply for the job.

00:15:56: It was a mega-kitchen In the first week and half lost Over half the brigade and they were all men.

00:16:08: So we were left with mainly women.

00:16:11: so I'm not trying to say it for any dramatic reasons other than Like in the masculinity of the cooking, In my opinion like there was no buttons.

00:16:21: There was no one-to-five high or low.

00:16:23: It was just fire management You know?

00:16:27: And For some reason The Women found it more natural.

00:16:30: And if I can be a little bit of a hippie about it and people will say, oh bullshit.

00:16:34: Bullshit!

00:16:34: But i- A little bit like... ...a fire or waterfall or rainbow Like some things are just in us.

00:16:43: When I watched the women managing the fire initially Well not initially but they seemed to learn fire management quicker than alpha testosterone driven men like robust men, great cooks.

00:17:02: That was really interesting for me.

00:17:04: so when I went to write the book... ...I wanted to tune into that a little bit.

00:17:09: So it wasn't just- It's not political statement at all!

00:17:13: Its more if you really trace back.. ..it goes on an advertising campaign in the fifties that put Men In The Barbecue Outside And then it became a man's job.

00:17:25: But look, there is world-class female barbecue experts but... It was more than the male or the female.

00:17:32: It was about having a BBQ book that did more than just meat.

00:17:39: You've never eaten vegetables until you have used live fire Or cooked them in ash and brushed off and redressed.

00:17:50: or the concentration of flavor and the, the skin... Flavor that comes out.

00:17:56: The skins like you've never ever tasted before probably because you peeled them You know?

00:18:02: And it's just like- And then your kinda looking at whole fish Then using herbs Or leaves to protect things so you can fuck em up underneath its steaming Smoky sort of charry steaming is a whoa.

00:18:18: and then you're kind of, you know blistering tomatoes and chilies and creating sourses.

00:18:22: And it's like...and that obviously from the mentality point if you use one of those fire chimneys So you can be ready to cook in fifteen minutes.

00:18:35: That's really quick Right?

00:18:35: You could fill half a kettle barbecue on Wednesday night when your come home for work.

00:18:42: You can cook some stuff fast and have a whole meal cooking for three or four people really quickly.

00:18:47: So I think like in England, i don't know about Germany but we typically say barbecuing is for summer on special occasions And I Like to push that away?

00:18:57: No no if you've got the chimney We could be going in fifteen minutes just warming up an oven.

00:19:03: Actually my goodness If your got A thick steak To share between two people instead of these crappy little steaks that you always overcook them, right?

00:19:14: Yeah and I think it's just... So thats what i tried to do in the book.

00:19:19: The book was a massive success thank goodness!

00:19:24: And unsurprisingly not that it bothers me in the slightest but I did get quite lot of criticism from alpha men.

00:19:32: What the fuck is Jamie Oliver doing at Barbecue?

00:19:38: It's like dude Honestly, mate.

00:19:40: Like unless you understand what I did at Barbacoa if You saw the expense of it and The hard work and collaborating with my friend Adam Perry Lang probably one Of the planet's best barbecue experts.

00:19:51: like we had our own butchery We have like thirty grounds worth of meat hanging At any one time?

00:19:57: We had a butchering in A hang-in unit that you can't imagine.

00:20:01: It's funny because i'm a TV chef.

00:20:03: They think well... I can't be a barbecue connoisseur like you know, so it's there is like a kind of There is kind of like What's the word?

00:20:17: Kind of a cliche Of what people should be in the industry and i From day one naked chef disagreed with that.

00:20:26: You know the naked chef was about saying boys Get cooking And yes It Was at home.

00:20:31: it wasn't About chefs.

00:20:33: and I remember meeting A very well-known chef.

00:20:40: Very early days on and he just goes, you're a fucking disgrace to our industry.

00:20:47: telling

00:20:48: everyone that they can cook Telling everyone that anyone could cook And we've been training for years It's like oh here we go.

00:20:55: You completely lost the point Like no one is cooking.

00:21:00: If more people cook at home then more will be curious about your restaurant.

00:21:04: Are you kidding me?

00:21:06: Again, like there's a passport to cook.

00:21:08: In security?

00:21:09: So what is the reason for this

00:21:10: reaction?

00:21:11: I think it was jealousy because you have to remember when i became very famous quickly not my choice It wasn't publics' choice!

00:21:22: I didn't go and buy millions of books.

00:21:24: They did A lot on.

00:21:26: my heroes that I loved were awful To me Absolutely Not very nice at all And it took about seven years.

00:21:38: I'm bearing in mind, In the world of TV cookery like normally The machine eats you up and spits You out after three Years is i mean It's kind Of Like?

00:21:47: it's like Harcourt?

00:21:49: yeah Yeah so I kind of like immediately.

00:21:52: I didn't even know what was doing.

00:21:53: I started a production company, and started making my own stuff... ...and starting hiring the cameraman and choosing the lenses to get close up.

00:21:59: And as a dyslexic person like..I couldn't rely just on words whether it's written or spoken.

00:22:06: So i wanted in the books- I think this is why they were quite successful In the book we use step by steps Wide shots Mid shots Macro shots And so I started realising that it would be same for TV Like literally!

00:22:18: I need show something rising in the oven.

00:22:22: How are we going to do it?

00:22:23: I'll tell you how, We get an angle grinder and cut side of the oven off and stick bulletproof glass on it And a lens on it and lighten it and film with time lapse.

00:22:33: You can learn a lot through imagery.

00:22:41: My passion was just getting more people cooking.

00:22:47: I was excited to use any medium to get people cooking and it's still the same to this very day whether its children stuff, kids' stuff cartoons TV documentaries film pictures Instagram you know like whatever.

00:23:02: The social media like

00:23:05: inspiring every channel You can find.

00:23:07: yeah

00:23:07: i think even for your audience that i know Your audience is going To be very foodie but they might not realize That certainly in Britain I don't know about Germany, but certainly in Britain.

00:23:18: We've never cooked less ever In history

00:23:23: Ever.

00:23:24: you're never cook less than today

00:23:26: we've never cook lesson to day and we've Never eaten less vegetables since the Second World War right.

00:23:32: so So then they're gonna be going rightfully.

00:23:36: so well Jamie Oliver You clearly haven't done a very good job Because people have never eaten less.

00:23:42: But but the truth is it's the way that lifestyle is go-in.

00:23:46: men and women are working now, the responsibilities of life.

00:23:49: The fact that we're not taught to cook at school... ...the fact our family units have changed a lot.. ..and were'nt learning how to cook home.

00:23:57: And people having babies younger than their grandmothers aren't around as much.

00:24:03: this passing down techniques & making & filling pies & flavour it's vanishing.

00:24:11: cooking is like rare breed pig.

00:24:13: its really rare.

00:24:16: So for sure, I know i've done a lot to keep people cooking.

00:24:20: But the uberization...the digitisation of food where you have the whole world that they know lots about the top line?

00:24:27: The broad strokes of Korea and Japanese?

00:24:29: is that in other different fermenting this?

00:24:32: ah!

00:24:32: but Have They eaten it maybe?

00:24:35: Have they ever made It?

00:24:36: probably not so we now like.

00:24:40: the only truth In both our countries Is what People buy in supermarkets And you can get access to that data.

00:24:51: The truth is very depressing and it's clear about death, disease or diet related diseases... Shit farming practices!

00:25:03: The list goes on.

00:25:04: so I guess everyone in the food industry really is trying to promote support mentor ourselves to not consume our dinner through, I mean like we just did a survey in Britain.

00:25:23: This is the fucked up survey right?

00:25:26: Twenty-five percent of Britain now would rather drink their food than eat it.

00:25:31: Okay, like there are some products on the market.

00:25:32: Yeah, I

00:25:33: suggest

00:25:34: it's a perfect meal in anything and obviously as nutritionist i can tell you this is not the case.

00:25:41: This isn't life that we want to crave.

00:25:44: and your body doing more than just processing nutrition chewing.

00:25:50: Is massively important.

00:25:52: talking to people sitting and eating is the latest science proving that sitting down talking an eating, you know it's better for your metabolism and anti-inflammatory.

00:26:05: And like hugely powerful to I mean a lot of the blue zones where people live the longest product.

00:26:11: yeah we've done a book on it but like Sitting Down and Eating Like The French Do and Not Eating On The Fly Or At The Computer This Is Important.

00:26:21: But Yeah The fact That Twenty Five Percent Of People Don't Want To Even Eat because they're too fucking busy.

00:26:26: It's crazy, nearly fifty percent of households don't have a table.

00:26:32: so you know in the world of food it is all very glamorous and beautiful but food can be everything.

00:26:45: if people are not cooking there no tables.

00:26:51: I'm a bit frightened.

00:26:52: But, but...I know you're trying to work against it.

00:26:56: your programs where you help children at schools and sort of uh-to show them how to eat right maybe do say um give us some insights what are your plans?

00:27:07: What can you effect as young

00:27:10: children?

00:27:10: Oh everything!

00:27:11: i mean look i am not going to beat around the bush.

00:27:16: Look, let's just talk about Germany for a second.

00:27:20: Amazing country like incredible capacity very many industries that are globally world-leading blah blah.

00:27:33: you've got yourself a handsome country here right?

00:27:37: but I have been coming in for twenty years and no government has ever put teaching German kids to cook at school as a fundamental life skill.

00:27:51: And it's just like, and if you look in... If you research it an I have..if-If you go to the best German economist right?

00:28:00: And said is there a GDP case for Germany becoming more prosperous if kids know how to look after themselves?

00:28:14: no about food where it comes from.

00:28:18: Yeah, because also we're consumers.

00:28:20: After your house the second most amount of money you spend in your life is food and when you spend a euro or dollar or pound like you are voting for system right?

00:28:30: So if you know more about food... I don't know about Germany but there's like seventy percent of kids.

00:28:39: eleven to thirteen in Britain go home to an empty house.

00:28:42: We call them latch door kids.

00:28:49: So if you think about it from a government point of view, all the women have gone to work and they've taxed them the same.

00:28:56: They take all their money in the pockets... And then the kids are coming home to an empty house.

00:29:03: They're not even learning at school.

00:29:04: how do basic things?

00:29:06: so I had an initiative which has just gone crazy like we were over half secondary schools in three years.

00:29:15: Completely voluntary and completely free, no help from the government whatsoever.

00:29:22: I mean it's disgusting really but we work for teachers who worked with their kids And its gone crazy called ten skills.

00:29:30: so ultimately what i'm trying to say is before I die It would be nice To promise every German and every British parent that when your kid leaves school at sixteen, they will know ten recipes to save their life.

00:29:49: Right?

00:29:50: They'll know how to budget.

00:29:51: so whether Johnny is rich middle-class or poor well he can cook right and then we have a shop And there are no the basics of nutrition on our food affects their body in how long they're gonna live.

00:30:08: I personally don't think it's hard ask.

00:30:10: i think its very logical backed up by economics.

00:30:15: I don't understand why sensible Germans wouldn't push it through government, um i think it would be good for farming in Germany?

00:30:22: Yeah!

00:30:23: I think also... It wouldn't get into the way of standard traditional education.

00:30:28: because you there's no better way to learn about history uh maths and biology than food like.. There is no better ways to learn the basics of maths then baking.

00:30:39: Also a health care system but profit from that?

00:30:41: A hundred percent.

00:30:42: so You know, as you can see with me I kind of...I get emotional and like exciting about it.

00:30:47: It's

00:30:47: a mission that your

00:30:47: following right?

00:30:48: Yeah well i'm not..i am simple person at heart.

00:30:53: And when my daughter is nurse Right!

00:30:58: When you look who comes in the back door Of the NHS Which has very similar structure to the German system The healthcare system Its over fifty percent are coming for diet related diseases.

00:31:12: So you're already paying for it.

00:31:15: You're already paid for it and you can make dramatic changes in ten years, the problem is our political cycles goes like a three-year loop but really we need to be thinking ten or fifteen.

00:31:33: so

00:31:34: that's a problem.

00:31:34: politics

00:31:35: every time yeah well its down side of democracy right?

00:31:40: you don't make any decisions.

00:31:47: And, for me... I mean your first question was can you teach kids things?

00:31:51: Yes!

00:31:52: But i was eight when i was learning to carry a knife-to be safe.. To use the knife through different cutting methods.

00:32:01: You know by the time i was eleven i'm equally as good now As a fifty.

00:32:05: one year old is when i Was Eleven.

00:32:07: Like kids are amazing to dance, to cycle.

00:32:10: To do gymnastics like kids are amazing.

00:32:14: and so we...to protect a child you don't take them away from the knives or take him away from oil or water.

00:32:21: You teach them to respect them And understand how dangerous they are.

00:32:27: How kitchen works Whether it's the kitchen in home Or commercial kitchen.

00:32:32: There is things that need us learn.

00:32:34: Do your personal kids can watch?

00:32:38: how she raised up and did a fat carrier by cooking in the end.

00:32:42: So this, I think it's positive.

00:32:44: also mentorship without knowing your tickets.

00:32:49: but you were not only flying high You've had downsides.

00:32:53: from which times do you learn more?

00:32:57: Well i don't really want to have too much from the down sides But of course Look, I've had many failures.

00:33:11: The emotion of coming to terms with failure is a really interesting human story... I don't think we're educated in any way shape or form about... If you were to analyse lots people that made it It's never so simple and normally they have lost broken ruined, been bankrupt multiple times.

00:33:42: Typically because you're trying to change a system that is stuck in the rut and your trying to do things differently.

00:33:48: And uh...that doesn't always go well but there's.

00:33:51: I mean..I've failed at many many things.

00:33:54: But um...businesses investments Every time i fail theres alway being a kernel of genius.

00:34:05: The reason it failed was either too early

00:34:09: or people did understand yeah,

00:34:11: or to late but normally two early and wasn't quite simple enough.

00:34:21: But listen I think you know i started being...I mean I hate the word entrepreneur..but like I guess that's what you call them?

00:34:28: I just called it like being fucking stupid enough to put your money where your mouth is having a go!

00:34:34: Like pulling your sleeves up right.

00:34:36: Um, you know I started doing that in my mid-twenties.

00:34:40: I mean fifteen.

00:34:41: i started at twenty five opened at twenty six.

00:34:45: That was all of the money that I possessed and luckily...I mean strangely At that time it was quite a lot of money because I'd sold a load Of books but literally I spent all of It on fifteen until I ran out And then there were three weeks where I Was actually bankrupt But not technically and Then I got saved by another royalty check from My publisher.

00:35:06: thank goodness But you know, that business was a charity.

00:35:11: Who the hell is going to do that?

00:35:12: It's madness!

00:35:13: it was the best thing I've ever done like...you know..the food The atmosphere....the cause.

00:35:18: You know taking young kids who were kind of lost and not sure what they wanted to do.

00:35:25: Yeah well i think its obviously there.

00:35:28: probably about a third our kids came from.

00:35:31: maybe half come from troubled backgrounds problems with law prison, drugs of course.

00:35:40: So that was an amazing learning time for me.

00:35:43: What drove you to this decision?

00:35:45: To do fifteen?

00:35:47: Okay It was a mix.

00:35:50: what?

00:35:51: what drove me too.

00:35:54: No one ever believes us by the way so I get bored of telling it not telling it to you but like saying it.

00:35:59: But i think maybe they believe me now because im older and The reason I wanted to do it was because i felt guilty about having made so much money so quickly.

00:36:08: So, well...I went from having no money like my bank account was read every month and then I wrote a book And before Like It went straight into number top ten You know?

00:36:22: I think..like I paid off my advance in the first six months you know?

00:36:27: Um....and Then I had like a million quid on the bank account.

00:36:32: I didn't, so it's a very strange concept because...I grew up from the age of eleven earning one pound twenty an hour and if i worked ten hours you know do the maths right?

00:36:43: So that is how you earn money.

00:36:46: But I had written this book but nearly did not happen.

00:36:49: You know..that book nearly didnt happened Only happened to them.

00:36:53: They said oh next time we will do series ,you can do a book If you just need the rest .. got recipes.

00:36:59: It came together really quickly and also I'd written all my recipes in a bin bag.

00:37:04: And hilariously, My wife loves to clean!

00:37:06: We were only living on one bedroom flat... Well not even the one-bedroom flat.

00:37:09: it was studio flat.. ..and i had hidden the dustbin bag under where my clothes are.

00:37:15: So frightened that she would thrown them away.

00:37:17: but they're all recipes.

00:37:18: so that's Book One.

00:37:19: basically You

00:37:20: wrote it ON THE RECIPES?

00:37:26: It was like doctor's language, right?

00:37:28: So it was on order.

00:37:30: Bits of shitty paper or the stuff you put in an order at restaurants... ...it was a collection of recipes from say three to four years!

00:37:37: But anyway when I had made money.. ..I think that would have been such a shock for my system That i felt guilty and grown up quite simple old-fashioned home.

00:37:51: and my mum and dad worked in the hospitality industry, in a pub.

00:37:54: Incredible kitchen!

00:37:56: And Dad was like such hard... Well Mum & Dad were such hard workers that it just didn't quite fit with how I'd been brought up so i didn't know how to direct my guilt.

00:38:13: Then one day at a couple of... Tell you what happened is.. My wife was a waitress late night restaurant And I used to finish at the Neil Street restaurant with Tim, at one thirty because i was their head pastry chef.

00:38:29: So I'd get The Last Tube home from Leicester Square To Hampstead.

00:38:34: That's where she worked and I watched them cash up and clean.

00:38:38: It was like two in the morning right?

00:38:40: One of the girls that work there Was working with young kids who were underprivileged and had special needs And she was like, oh my god Jamie you wouldn't believe it.

00:38:49: Like we started cooking with them and when we start making dough... ...and then do this their eyes light up.

00:38:55: they calm down.

00:38:56: They're really annoying there but not annoying us When out are getting in trouble.

00:38:59: But that's the knot For me.

00:39:02: as a kid who had dyslexia at school I was a bit like that At school.

00:39:06: So

00:39:06: your father connected a little

00:39:08: bit?

00:39:08: Yeah!

00:39:09: She gave me an idea That night.

00:39:11: i went home Gave birth to fifteen is concept And then everyone, and because I had a million quid in the bank.

00:39:20: I wanted to... ...and i could!

00:39:24: Everyone that spoke to said yes like literally went shopping for best young talent In The World Literally the best young sommelier in the world Like Matt Skinner looking up genius guy.

00:39:37: It literally got him moved to London you know, the same with Toby Puttack who was my head chef and we just started arming all these incredible chefs.

00:39:48: And then we did it!

00:39:50: It's wild.

00:39:51: no one could believe that.

00:39:52: of course all journalists thought this was like a marketing ploy or insincere bullshit and they kept saying the same thing for about four years.

00:40:04: And then, after four or five years... ...they got bored of being cynical because as I'm sure….

00:40:11: …I would imagine like being cynical is a terrible disease.

00:40:17: Yeah it's best friends with jealousy – both shit!

00:40:20: You need to get in relationship with cynicism and jealousy pretty quickly otherwise you're gonna have a shit life.

00:40:26: So yeah we keep powering on.

00:40:28: four hundred and eighty six students graduated over sixty five percent which would remain in the industry after six years.

00:40:40: we have Michelin stars within our students.

00:40:42: you know I never forget when my friend April Bloomfield opened Spotted Pig in New York East Village, she killed it.

00:40:52: She's an incredible cook but her head chef was one of my ex-graduates Ralph And that's when they got the Michelin Star, right?

00:40:59: Like oh my god not only a Michelin star but I'm Michelin start in our pub.

00:41:02: In New York it is like... The food was amazing!

00:41:06: But you know.

00:41:08: so yeah i am very proud of part of life.

00:41:11: Yeah really should be proud because its an outstanding story although your told now Coming to the end what are your wishes for closer future?

00:41:23: another book and other restaurants.

00:41:29: I think as i get older, starting to grow into my age and thinking about what does good look like.

00:41:47: Honestly truly the thing that gives me most pleasure is being attracted or finding young talent male & female in the kitchen and being helpful, having long-term relationships that help them realise their full potential.

00:42:13: Mentorship in there?

00:42:14: Yeah!

00:42:14: And I think i would like to do more of it because believe or not selling the Jamie Oliver story is kind hard work for me really...I always cringe at trying sell my books promote myself or his like my pots and pans.

00:42:32: I mean, you know it's my job of course but really i'm confident in many respects.

00:42:40: on the inside im still quite shy.

00:42:43: no one believes that either.

00:42:46: so ive always been a bit uncomfortable with promoting although people listening to this will go like, well you do a bloody good job.

00:42:54: But I would much rather promote someone else.

00:42:56: and as i get into my fifties sixties and seventies um...I think older chefs have got such a lot of offer for the younger ones while their bodies are falling apart.

00:43:10: too many years I started off doing sort of sixteen hours a day, eighteen hours today you know and that was normal.

00:43:20: And to be honest even though my type of cooking has changed like i'm still doing too many hours now.

00:43:27: so i think work-life balance for sure more time with the family for sure but i think.

00:43:33: more mentoring um...I'd like to do some more restaurants but uh..but i would like to Do More.

00:43:38: Um For me it's sort of split into two camps Like there is Things like James Italian, which I started on my own grew to forty six.

00:43:50: The first nine years were as good it could ever get.

00:43:54: the stories, the sourcing, the training, the chefs couldn't have been better.

00:44:00: Nine years and then three years of shit in death lost everything.

00:44:05: so people would probably be amazed that i never took a wage or dividend just lost everything.

00:44:13: but it was a beautiful thing.

00:44:15: And we got most of it right, and a few other important things wrong!

00:44:19: But I've just opened another James Italian.

00:44:21: so for me that's beautiful because its simple mid-market food.

00:44:26: It is unexpectedly good.

00:44:27: the supply chain is really good The ingredients.

00:44:30: So i love being accessible and affordable For sure.

00:44:34: On the other side I'd like to do some more complicated as the wrong word Like challenging restaurants.

00:44:44: It doesn't mean complicated from a technical point of view, it could be more like fire cooking or unusual niche cultural cooking.

00:44:54: But I think more experiential and less an everyday place to eat good food.

00:45:03: And this is the night out so theatrical.

00:45:06: So i'm kind of interested in that Complex?

00:45:10: Yeah because I feel like a creative.

00:45:37: Yeah, so I kind of feel like there's unfinished business.

00:45:51: But not in a kind of gross way.

00:45:53: just it could be twenty seats and something very humble that is open four nights per week.

00:46:02: but we'll see... So i feel like they're still firing the tank.

00:46:08: yeah.

00:46:08: It's

00:46:09: great to hear that!

00:46:11: For the ending One question, could you please ask these questions very

00:46:17: short?

00:46:18: Good luck on that

00:46:19: one.

00:46:19: I'm fucking terrible

00:46:20: at show answers

00:46:21: But the first... The First Question is quite easy.

00:46:23: Describe your personality with a sound

00:46:26: Really?

00:46:28: Fuck's sake My personality or the sound.

00:46:33: How

00:46:33: do use?

00:46:34: how to use sound?

00:46:44: There ya go.

00:46:47: I mean y'know I kind of just improvised there.

00:46:53: I mean, I got a few whistle talents that could have given you but... Okay now

00:46:56: i'm curious about your whistle talents?

00:46:57: Of course!

00:46:58: Um okay..I can do um But yeah that- I am going to give some credit here.

00:47:09: That is definitely the weirdest question I've had in thirty years.

00:47:14: Amazing Let's see what happens on number

00:47:16: two.

00:47:16: What would you tell them?

00:47:17: Your eighteen year old self today

00:47:23: Get much better accountant.

00:47:28: Excuse.

00:47:29: good.

00:47:29: for next question Why do so many restaurants make no money despite having full tables?

00:47:40: Because it's very, very hard.

00:47:42: And because our shitty governments don't see any difference between a family-run business that buys local food from great producers and dominos pizza.

00:47:53: they're both the same industry.

00:47:54: like if you want to make money just go get a dominoes franchise clockwork.

00:47:59: But the government sees no difference.

00:48:00: It doesn't see like this, The social value of this is so shallow and God knows where the money goes right?

00:48:09: The Social Value Of This Is not only robustly deep it's robustly cultural historical And makes towns & streets & villages worth travelling to and know everything So academic.

00:48:27: But these people are so thick, they don't understand that... ...they have hundreds of thousands of chefs around the country doing great jobs and struggling to make a euro.

00:48:41: It like just look at the maths And it's almost like- I know that chefs famous for being strong and robust.

00:48:49: but its'almost this They're artists in the sense of Like..They'll do it!

00:49:00: And do you know what upsets me?

00:49:02: is in the UK?

00:49:03: The film industry.

00:49:05: gets bailed out every three or four of five years.

00:49:08: Like if you're an investor, If You Got Money like they make it so easy to put into a film just keep ticking over and say well why do you make special preferential treatment for British Film Industry?

00:49:19: Now don't get me wrong.

00:49:19: I love British Film ,I Love The Craftsman .

00:49:22: I Love All the Brilliance That's In It.

00:49:24: but Why Do They Get Special Treatment?

00:49:26: And Restauranteurs And Chefs?

00:49:30: Not Even Lower VAT?

00:49:33: We Get Nothing.

00:49:34: And it would be so easy for us to prove that our money went within thirty miles.

00:49:43: You know pork farmers, vegetable farmers like the employees you're taking a young child and your teaching them to butcher fishmonger marinate grill all those sections of... That's not happening over here.

00:49:56: they are being paid enough but its looks good on paper.

00:50:02: That's my very long answer to your request for a small short

00:50:07: answer.

00:50:07: But I'm happy with it, great cutter!

00:50:09: Last question because we are on the Rolling Pin Convention.

00:50:13: What makes the rolling pin convention unique?

00:50:15: You were walking through what is important.

00:50:17: why so important?

00:50:19: Do you know what?

00:50:20: i think every country should have this... It's cool and contemporary but most importantly convening people, it's about a community.

00:50:35: And that community has to be curated really carefully because there are emotions and there is egos like all kinds of good human stuff happens in any industry.

00:50:45: but the problem historically we don't have this, we do not have a convener.

00:50:51: We want to convene for positivity, we wanna convene love, share the upside of mentorship relationships industry coming together and whether it's you know, technical equipment or suppliers big medium or small.

00:51:11: You know we love to love the small suppliers And of course our emotions are strong here.

00:51:16: But we also want them to graduate into like medium-sized businesses.

00:51:20: Also just because a business is big doesn't mean they have to be bad.

00:51:24: Yes if they are bad please go but there are some good ones as well.

00:51:28: so I think You want creativity, you want audaciousness.

00:51:35: But I think most importantly... ...you wanna share the love.

00:51:38: Sadly we don't have anything like this in the UK

00:51:41: So it should be an Olympic

00:51:43: in the

00:51:43: U.K.?

00:51:43: It would really interesting.

00:51:47: The fact that so many chefs wants to be here is great And the fact its recognising talent and effort In many different dimensions of cooking are good.

00:52:00: whether we're making a sandwich or a Michelin star experience, you know it's not.

00:52:07: one is better than the other.

00:52:08: It's just like diligence love passion care emotion yeah and I think um.

00:52:16: And of course when you bring people together You never really where the value is but its probably conversations Its probably meeting from place to another.

00:52:30: it feels very positive.

00:52:32: Thank you very much Jamie, thanks for sharing time and these intelligent

00:52:38: answers.